Author Topic: Flamenco Study  (Read 516 times)

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AO

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Flamenco Study
« on: June 10, 2018, 08:21:43 AM »
This is a little study I started last year and I’m thinking of expanding on it, maybe not.  Although I think guitar always sounds a bit cheesy as a virtual instrument, I’m surprised how well Finale plays back the rasgueado. Although I know guitar construction has improved drastically in recent years, as far as projection and volume, I’m not quite sure of how much of an orchestra I can get away with and keep a balance here.

Not too much to see in this score but adding anyway.

Jerry Engelbach

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 12:56:29 PM »
Arthur,
 
I think the sound is quite good, and the orchestration of the harmonies and the use of the different instruments are well done.
 
I question the thematic material. The scalar figures on the guitar don't do much melodically. But maybe that's just the limitation of Flamenco.
 
Cheers,
Jer
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 02:39:33 PM by Jerry Engelbach »
Finale 26
GPO 5
iMac Mojave

gogreen

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 03:52:27 PM »
Nice, AO. I think you could expand this snippet A LOT. I see an awful lot of blank measures for woodwinds, for instance. In addition to filling out the orchestration, I think you could add much harmonic variety to some of the melodic lines--the string pizzicato measures at the end, for example. By the way, I thought the pizzicato there was a nice touch. You could also write countermelodies and embellishments to thicken the orchestration.

sandalwood

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 10:23:22 AM »
Very pleasant music! Like Art, I too look forward to your expanding this to something larger.

Might some shorter notes, like the 32nds in mm. 71, 79, 80,  playback more human-like  if you assigned different dynamics and/or slightly off-pitches to some of them?  The pizzicati at the end sounded a bit too loud to me.

Reha

mjf1947

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 09:10:12 AM »
Hi,

I enjoyed the work.

Do you play guitar?

I would suggest a bit more interplay between the solo guitar and the orchestra .... at the moment the orchestra seems to be more of an underpinning than a partner.

Mark

AO

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
Thanks for the feedback everyone, sorry for not responding quicker. I have lost interest in this piece for now, maybe pick it up in the future, new things are always coming around,


[size=0px]I question the thematic material. The scalar figures on the guitar don't do much melodically. But maybe that's just the limitation of Flamenco.[/size][/size]
Quote



I always understood flamenco being improvised hot blooded melodies based on different modes much like Jazz, more on the rhythmic end of things,


Quote
Thanks for listening Mark, yes I have been a professional classical guitarist and luthier for the past 40+ years, I am now retired from performing but still teaching both guitar  and lutherie.[/size][size=78%]  [/size]



Cheers everyone, I hope we can keep this forum going.


AO

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2018, 05:50:16 PM »
I'll have to figure the "quote feature" later. ???

Ron

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2018, 04:06:15 AM »
Okay. This is the beginning of what could be a very good work. Please keep at it.


However, it is not Flamenco. This is Flamenco: https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yset_chr_cnewtab&p=flamenco#id=29&vid=3d2e85bd90d219cc83940293993a0896&action=view


You can all your piece "Spanish" or "Andalusian," but Flamenco is a folk art with very strict rules about harmony and rhythmic patterns. (I studied Flamenco for a couple of years with a master and spent most of that time mastering the basic patterns. It might sound improvised, but, that's the point: it is a sort-of free form on top of a fixed foundation.)


I searched, but could find no example of any [/size]rasgueado patterns  in your work, though you mention the good playback you got from Finale. I have never managed to get a convincing [/color][/size]rasgueado from Finale and I was curious about how you did it. There is none in your work. Rasqueado is a sustained continuous roll on the guitar (fairly difficult to master. After two years of continuous practice I was able to sustain a roll for about 30 seconds.) Here is a link to give you an idea of what it is about: [/color][/size]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hpWof00dfM[/color]

[/size]BTW, in an orchestral work, solo instruments go right above the strings, not in the middle of the woodwinds.[/color]

[/size]Cheers![/color]
Ron
Rules? What rules?

AO

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2018, 07:53:53 AM »
Quote
However, it is not Flamenco.


The first time I heard authentic flamenco, I was mesmerized by whole experience, the dancers with their  beautiful dresses, the complex rhythms, the emotions that where conjured up by the performers,  just being in a smokey club in southern Spain ( I somehow have a vague memory of smoking cigarettes made with black tobacco, or was that Canada?) Oh to be young again but I’ll spare you the trip down memory lane.

it is definitely an art that seems impossible to learn in a book.  As a guitarist, I have no problem playing the various rasgueado patterns but I never got too in-depth with the art itself, I've studied Torroba and Turina extensively along with other Spanish composers using flamenco themes, but that’s as close as I got, not quite the same thing.  I suppose I should have used the term strumming instead rasgueado, even then, guitar as a virtual instrument always sucks. Also, I can see how someone with your knowledge of flamenco might cringe at the fact I called this “flamenco study” I have changed it to “quasi flamenco study” ;)

Thaks for the input Ron.

Ron

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2018, 08:02:52 AM »
I hope I didn't come across as too hard on you. That was not my intention. Yes, you are right that the Finale interpretation of strumming in quite good. If you ever do figure out how to get Finale to perform a rasgueado correctly, please let me know.

It is tricky when presenting a folk form in an orchestral context. It has been done quite well with straight-up jazz, but I doubt anyone has ever managed to recreate a genuine tinpan alley experience or a backwoods out-of-tune handmade guitar riff.
Ron
Rules? What rules?

RJB54

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2018, 08:11:02 AM »
I liked it and, as others have said, I think it deserves to be expanded.

I can't speak to the flamenco aspects as I know next to nothing about flamenco.
Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST.
Frank Zappa

Gillespie

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 04:27:25 PM »
Nice and pleasant to listen to.
A few simple issues:
  m39 and m43 are not possible, but very easy to remedy.  I recommend removing the lower F# from the Vth position D chords there.

Don't use Ped. and * markings as in mm. 70, 71, and 74.  Simply notate the bass notes with staves down and the upper voices with staves up--just like you've got it.  Measure 74 is a bit tricky to notate.  If you want the notes to continue to ring out you could notate as you did in measure 70, but if it looks too cluttery, just add the informal expression text "let ring".

AO

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Re: Flamenco Study
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 10:52:14 AM »
Good eye, Gillespie, I was actually intending that voicing from the 2nd position dropping the low d and highest F#, but yes, impossible to play as is. As far as the pedal markings, those are for playback only, I never use pedal markings for guitar, although that actually might be a good idea in some instances. This particular score is my writing template, not sure how it will end up if I ever do finish it. Thanks for the help.