Author Topic: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project  (Read 337 times)

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Jerry Engelbach

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 02:32:19 PM »
Patrick,
 
Your orchestration is beautifully complex and witty, and mostly admirably transparent.
 
There are some strange dissonances towards the end that I don't understand, almost as if it's in two different keys for a few notes.
 
Great job overall. The bagatelles are terrific project!
 
Cheers,
Jer


« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 03:15:25 PM by Jerry Engelbach »
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Patrick O'Keefe

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 04:33:51 PM »
Thanks for your comments, Jerry.  I'm a bit worried about one of those comments, though.

There are some strange dissonances towards the end that I don't understand, almost as if it's in two different keys for a few notes.
Hmm.  If there are strange dissonances and bitonality only near the end then I'd better rework this piece.  There are supposed to be fairly strong major 7th hits throughout the piece.  OK, so major 7th chords are maybe not "strange dissonances", but dissonance is supposed to be a significant aspect of the piece.

Also, the piece is supposed to be a bit tonally ambiguous.   The middle section is pretty strongly in D; the rest is sort of G-ish but usually doesn't stay in one key for more than about one measure, and I don't think there is a clean or appropriate cadence anywhere in sight except in the last measure.   Towards the end I try to let the ambiguities bump into each other more and increase the dissonances a bit, but if you felt that only towards the end then I haven't been completely successful.

My intent when writing the original piano pieces was to use nonfunctional harmony to support a tonal center.  For #3 I sort of turned that around.  I tried using sort of functional harmony to create an ambiguous tonal center.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 05:29:53 PM by Patrick O'Keefe »

Patrick O'Keefe

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2018, 05:31:50 PM »
There are some strange dissonances towards the end that I don't understand, almost as if it's in two different keys for a few notes.
I finally spent some time going over this again and discovered what you meant.  I had some seriously wrong "wrong notes" in one of the horns.  I've rewritten a couple measures - more than just the wayward horn - to make the dissonances and bitonality more in character.  I updated the PDF and MP3 files yesterday or the day before.

The first 3 of this set are now pretty much done except that I may add some percussion.  #4 has tympani so I'll see if that or other percussion fits in the previous pieces.  (The orchestra I'm going to submit this to typically has one percussionist.  He usually plays  either tympani or other percussion but rarely both in the same piece ... for fairly obvious reasons.)

I will soon post #4.  As I said earlier, it is not the #4 whose piano version got such positive comments earlier in this thread.  The piano version is here:
https://app.box.com/s/27qc703fwo4210ppk2om0hdh4jlztyqx
This is a slow atmospheric piece.  The orchestrated version has turned darker and gloomier.  Not where I expected it to go but sometimes I have little choice.  The music tells me what it wants to be. 

Jerry Engelbach

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2018, 03:32:33 PM »
Patrick,

Ah, yes. I'm glad I'm not the one who's crazy. The harmonies fall right into place now. Nice work.

Number 4 on piano is very, very nice. The only things that struck me as, well, a little off, were the arpeggiated C triads in bars 11 and 12 and the C# minor triad in bar 12. They seem a bit "ordinary" compared with the rest of the piece.

Cheers,
Jer
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Patrick O'Keefe

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 04:16:44 PM »
...The only things that struck me as, well, a little off, were the arpeggiated C triads in bars 11 and 12 and the C# minor triad in bar 12. They seem a bit "ordinary" compared with the rest of the piece.
Hmm.  I'll have to look into that.  I had described the original piano work as obsessively recurring bittersweet memories.  That little figure was part of the "sweet".  But sweetness has pretty much disappeared in the orchestral version.  I'll roughen that up a bit.

Jerry Engelbach

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2018, 10:52:43 AM »
I had described the original piano work as obsessively recurring bittersweet memories.
That's helpful to know. The C and C# minor triads sound to me more neutral than bittersweet.
 
Not that they couldn't be relief to contrast with the bittersweet, but I felt that in context their texture was bland.
 
Of course, there's my own bias as a jazz musician, used to embellishing chords with extensions and alterations and hardly, if ever, using triads.
 
Cheers,
Jer
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Patrick O'Keefe

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Re: 5 Bagatelles - an orchestration project
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2018, 01:29:40 PM »
I had described the original piano work as obsessively recurring bittersweet memories.
That's helpful to know. The C and C# minor triads sound to me more neutral than bittersweet.
 
Not that they couldn't be relief to contrast with the bittersweet, but I felt that in context their texture was bland.
Things weren't so bland in the piano version.  That arpaggeated C chord was played against a Eb/Bb/F quintal chord; then again (rather than C# minor) against a C# minor chord.  There was plenty of dissonance in that first combination but the quintal chord (if it still exists at all) is buried.  And obviously the C# minor against C# minor is pablum.

Luckily, this work is far from complete so I can try multiple solutions.