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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 10 March 2010 : 08:49:22 AM
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Hi Folks,
I was browsing various subjects here and came across this folder that has lain dormant for too long. I'm surprised that no one took up Hal's challenge. There exercises can be very helpful learning tools for those just starting out.
Okay, I'm going to give you one here to help you get the idea of modulating to different keys in a short piece of music. In the most basic structure of music one begins somewhere, goes somewhere else, then returns to the beginning. The structure I am giving you here has been used countless times in traditional hymns, folk songs, etc. See what you can do with this. Please: do not just write block chords--write a melody and an accompaniment that follows the structure. Rememeber to vary your chord changes: they should not always be on the same beat or be of the same duration. You might use the opening C, for example, for an entire measure, then go through the G - F/C - C in another measure. There's a basic pattern here that you should spot when you look at each line. Have fun!
C - G - F/A - C- Dm/A - G - F - C;
C - G - F/A - C - D7/A - G;
C - G/B - D - G - Em - D/A - A - D;
C - G/B - Am - F - G7 - C;
You begin in C major and make it very clear that that is the key. At the end of the 2nd line, you have gone to G major (notice how changing the Dm chord in line 1 to a D7 chord in line 2 adds some tension. Line 3 is all in G major, with a brief side-trip to D major (another brief surprise). Line 4 takes you back to C major--which is where you started.
Another thing to notice is that not all the chords are in root position; 1st and 2nd inversions are used to vary the harmonic anticipation. The full resolution of G7 - C does not happen until the last measure, giving an air of finality.
Good luck.
*Note: I've edited this after Hal's suggestion below. |
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Hal Owen
Moderator
USA
1812 Posts |
Posted - 10 March 2010 : 12:23:06 PM
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Ron,
This would be much better with first inversions instead of second inversions.
Hal |
Harold Owen
mailto:hjowen@uoregon.edu
Visit my web site at:
http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 11 March 2010 : 04:09:06 AM
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| Thanks Hal. Your suggestion does improve the flow. Thank you. |
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 11 March 2010 : 10:40:20 AM
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Ron,
I work on this exercise this evening. I haven't modulated to another key in along time so this will be good for me. |
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 15 March 2010 : 09:22:42 AM
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Here is my attempt at it. I cheated slightly by adding 3 more measures at the end of the first line.
My goal was to make this a 32 measure piece so I most of the chords are one measure long. You're right, this is a challenge.
I tried to make this into a complete piece but I think I lost it somewhere in the second line.
File Attachment: Modulation.mus (159.9 KB)
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File Attachment: Modulation.pdf (37.61 KB)
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 15 March 2010 : 3:51:23 PM
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| Very pleasant melody. The climax at the shift to D major is muted, but it's still there. One small quibble: measure 27, the 5th note in the bass (F) sounds better as a D and fits with the harmony in the right hand. |
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 15 March 2010 : 4:19:41 PM
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Thanks Ron,
I actually enjoyed this exercise because it made me use harmonies that I've forgotten. Do you have any other exercises like this. I like this beginner forum because it's allowing me to get back into the swing of things. I realize that I don't write where I am at, you won't know where i need help so i take every exercises as a musical challenge and not as an exercise?
By the way, I didn't understand what you meant by muted. Was it anticlimatic (too quick)? any suggestions how i could make it better.
Oh, since I have 2010 and can't seem to written in 09, should i include midi files so everyone could hear what we are talking about? |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 16 March 2010 : 04:28:10 AM
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All I meant was that the climax could have been more dramatic, but there's nothing wrong with what you did.
You cannot post audio files in this forum (space is limited), but you can post links to them if you store them on the net elsewhere. Seeing as you have Finale 2010, why not made .mp3 files? They sound much better than .mid files.
You do know that your piece is completely unplayable on the piano, I assume. |
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 16 March 2010 : 08:59:07 AM
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No, I wasn't aware that it was unplayable - is it because of the note spacing or the 3rds and 6ths? I could see where some of left hand chords would be a stretch.
yes, that is what I meant by the midi file - an MP3 or a link.
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 17 March 2010 : 09:37:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
No, I wasn't aware that it was unplayable - is it because of the note spacing or the 3rds and 6ths? I could see where some of left hand chords would be a stretch.
yes, that is what I meant by the midi file - an MP3 or a link.
An average human hand can easily reach an octave. Most pianists can handle up to a 10th, preferably with no other notes in the hand. You've got an octave plus a p4 in a few places. That would requires a Rachmaninov. I'll leave it to the pros to comment on other aspects.
I don't undertsand the difference between a "link" and a "url." As far as I know they are the same thing. |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 17 March 2010 : 09:37:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
No, I wasn't aware that it was unplayable - is it because of the note spacing or the 3rds and 6ths? I could see where some of left hand chords would be a stretch.
yes, that is what I meant by the midi file - an MP3 or a link.
An average human hand can easily reach an octave. Most pianists can handle up to a 10th, preferably with no other notes in the hand. You've got an octave plus a p4 in a few places. That would requires a Rachmaninov. I'll leave it to the pros to comment on other aspects.
I don't undertsand the difference between a "link" and a "url." As far as I know they are the same thing. |
Administrator: http://www.composeforums.com |
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bear
Silver Member
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 17 March 2010 : 11:35:53 AM
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Yes I see that. I was looking at some of those block chords and they would be difficult to play.
I know when I was playing piano I could reach a 10th but an 11th was difficult. The problem i find with Finale is that i don't have to play it where when I was going to college I was limited by my playing ability. So I apologize if I get carried away - tends to be in my nature.
I'll rewrite the piece, simpliflying it. I'll simplify the bass as well. Should be a good exercise for me - I still have too many notes.
could I have some help with orchestrating this? this is definitely written for piano and would definitely need to cleaned up (a whole bunch).
Scratch that last part about the link. when i was copying the link it came over as a non-link (you would have to copy and paste the URL into the Address box to go there). I discovered that after I submit my reply, that URL becomes a link that you can click and it will take you to the website. |
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randall999
Full Member
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 10 June 2010 : 5:46:31 PM
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I don't see what you mean by "Line 3 is all in G major". Line three in your four lines of listed chord progressions has all sorts of chords, not just G major. Are you talking about a music score? I don't see any music score example attached to your posting, if that is what you meant to reference. I want to try this challenge, being a noob, but I am not clear what the challenge is, what I am supposed to do. Toss me a bone?
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flint
Silver Member
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 10 June 2010 : 6:59:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by randall999
I don't see what you mean by "Line 3 is all in G major". Line three in your four lines of listed chord progressions has all sorts of chords, not just G major. Are you talking about a music score? I don't see any music score example attached to your posting, if that is what you meant to reference. I want to try this challenge, being a noob, but I am not clear what the challenge is, what I am supposed to do. Toss me a bone?
The chord progression in line 3 gives the impression of being in G major by using (mostly) diatonic chords found in G major instead of (mostly) diatonic chords in C major (like lines 1, 2, and 4).
Starting with the second chord in line 3, you could analyze it as:
G: I6, V, I, vi, V6/4 V/V V
Instead of analyzing it in C:
C: V6, II, V, iii, V/VI, VI, II
Line 3, therefore represents a modulation out of the established key and temporarily establishes G major as the "tonic". |
Dave Mc., aka "Flint"
"How awful that the artist has become nothing but the after-dinner mint of society" – Samuel Barber |
Edited by - flint on 10 June 2010 7:04:01 PM |
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randall999
Full Member
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 June 2010 : 12:33:58 PM
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Thank you Flint, makes sense. I am treading water here trying to keep from drowning, still trying to learn about basic chord progressions beyond I-IV-V, this noob needs to learn this stuff. Doing these mini challenges is really helping, putting the book reading knowledge into practice. I have only done a few comps with Sibelius, but doing score composing with some semblance of intelligence is pretty new to me! Working hard though, posted a couple of beginner challenges so far. Looking forward to constructive feedback even if my comps stink.
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12 June 2010 : 7:42:39 PM
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Going through this quickly, there are a few problems that jump out at me. The first thing that struck me is how do you propose that an oboe play two notes simultaneously? I'd also like to suggest that you have the harp double the double-bass at least for part of this.
However, there are harmony/voice leading problems.
1) In this type of music you must be very wary of parallel fifths and octaves. They jump right out at the listener.
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Your G/D, F/C, C/G are especially painful.
Again, in the harp you have bare fifths:
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At the same time, avoid leaping to a fifth or octave from the same direction. Eg: F - C in treble; D - C in bass.
Be careful of where your notes are heading. Here you have an F# that is crying out to resolve to the G. Dropping to the B is jaring.
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In this example the Fn should resolve onto the E:
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Keep at it. |
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randall999
Full Member
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 13 June 2010 : 08:07:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ronan
Going through this quickly, there are a few problems that jump out at me. The first thing that struck me is how do you propose that an oboe play two twos simultaneously?
I guess I would have to have two oboes. Good point. Never played an oboe and I obviously do not know what an oboe is capable of doing, so I was lazy and should have studied some oboe (and whatever other instrument I use!) music to what an oboe can do. My error, I will try to do better homework on this in the future. (as I shrink away into the shadows, embarrassed, lol).
quote:
Originally posted by ronanI'd also like to suggest that you have the harp double the double-bass at least for part of this.
Will do. Nice suggestion.
quote:
Originally posted by ronanHowever, there are harmony/voice leading problems. 1) In this type of music you must be very wary of parallel fifths and octaves. They jump right out at the listener. Your G/D, F/C, C/G are especially painful....Again, in the harp you have bare fifths. At the same time, avoid leaping to a fifth or octave from the same direction. Eg: F - C in treble; D - C in bass. Be careful of where your notes are heading. Here you have an F# that is crying out to resolve to the G. Dropping to the B is jaring... The Fn should resolve onto the E... Keep at it.
All good. Will do. I am going to work on this composition more, try to fix the problems you graciously pointed out. Ronan thank you so much for taking the time to edit my score image and point out problems that I can now work on, I greatly appreciate it!
 randall |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2103 Posts |
Posted - 13 June 2010 : 09:50:47 AM
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Hi Randall,
It might be easier if you wrote this exercise as 4-part harmony without worrying about instrumentation. That way you'll have a clearer picture of what is going on.
Here's a hint: the bass line should (very generally) approximate the mirror movement of the treble. In other words, if the treble line is going up, the bass line should be heading down. Don't apply this as if it were a mechanical rule. The middle voices (generally) should move by step--again, not a mechanical rule. |
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mjf1947
Silver Member
USA
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 June 2010 : 09:58:36 AM
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"guess I would have to have two oboes. Good point. Never played an oboe and I obviously do not know what an oboe is capable of doing, so I was lazy and should have studied some oboe (and whatever other instrument I use!) music to what an oboe can do. My error, I will try to do better homework on this in the future. (as I shrink away into the shadows, embarrassed, lol).
"
Randall,
The oboe range is fine!
Mark (Oboist) |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1842 Posts |
Posted - 13 June 2010 : 10:24:07 AM
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Mark, the issue wasn't range, for the oboe (also an [ex]-oboe player), but rather the fact that there were double notes here and there in the part.
Randall, like all other woodwind instruments, the oboe is a monophonic instrument. It does not play chords, or two notes at once. Imagine woodwinds and brass as, say, singing. You alone cannot sing more than one note at a time. The same applies to them. Therefore, you write a single-instrument line for them, using single notes only. |
"Writing music to be revolutionary is like cooking to be famous: Music’s main function is not revolution. – Alan Belkin "
"String Quartet: noun. a good violinist, a bad violinist, an ex-violinist, and someone who hates violinists, getting together to complain about composers."
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Crabtree, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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Harmony Structure Challenge
