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kev
Full Member
13 Posts |
 Posted - 12 August 2007 : 3:52:39 PM
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Hi all,
I'd like to question what is the future of the music ?!.Sorry probably not the most original post in the world but Hey I'll go on.
If we consider the acheivements we've made in understanding the 'organisation' of sound to date,how does the classical knowledge relate to the average listener (classical or non classical listener)
For example is it possible that the what was considered 'musical' in Bachs day,its conventions,its rules...where are they now ???? Have they evolved musically or evolved in something quite differant ?
I propose that these rules and norms have not developed musically,but have entered the world of sound production.The art is becoming less about the what notes are written and more about the way these notes are presented as a medium (sound engineering).All of the principles that have held music so beautifully intact are now being followed by a differant breed of artist.Clarity,form,balance,......any principle of music can be ruthlessly applied to its sister Art...its reflection and portrait,the sound
Well I'm sorry if this will offend.Its not meant to at all.I compose classical and I love music.I love its oganisation and its spirit,so I don't want to ruffle any feathers.....I just want to ask honestly if the empthasis today is regarding the sound medium or the sound itself.Will the next Great be the musician or the Engineer ?
X
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Edited by - kev on 12 August 2007 3:58:22 PM |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 12 August 2007 : 6:51:28 PM
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Your question: "[is] the emphasis today ... regarding the sound medium or the sound itself?" has no relationship to composing music as I see it. The production and manipulation of sound is for the sound engineers, not the composers. You're mixing apples and oranges.
Your statement: "what was considered 'musical' in Bachs day,its conventions,its rules...where are they now ???? Have they evolved musically or evolved in something quite differant ?" The conventions of Bach's time are still there in his music. Yes, music has evolved. How can it be otherwise than musically? If you're talking about conventions regarding harmonic progression and counterpoint, they have changed enormously since Bach's time, but so what? That's a sign of a healthy environment. To remain fixed in one point of history is to be dead.
Your statement: "The art is becoming less about the what notes are written" leaves me completely flabbergasted. What the notes are that's written is what the great debates on this forum have been about. It is what music is about. It's what we love and do for a living.
Your question: "Will the next Great be the musician or the Engineer ?" There are many "Greats" today in both fields, as there are in all other fields. I don't see how one can negate the other. Again: apples and oranges.
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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kev
Full Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 12:04:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ronan
Your question: "[is] the emphasis today ... regarding the sound medium or the sound itself?" has no relationship to composing music as I see it. The production and manipulation of sound is for the sound engineers, not the composers. You're mixing apples and oranges.
[quote]
Sorry I was very tired when I wrote this post last night !Thanks for your comments.I feel I should expand on what maybe isn't too clear.
All dance music depends mainly on the 'frequencies' being used to give the music its sound.The engineer and the composer in this genre are one and the same.
[quote]
Your statement: "what was considered 'musical' in Bachs day,its conventions,its rules...where are they now ???? Have they evolved musically or evolved in something quite differant ?" The conventions of Bach's time are still there in his music. Yes, music has evolved. How can it be otherwise than musically? If you're talking about conventions regarding harmonic progression and counterpoint, they have changed enormously since Bach's time, but so what? That's a sign of a healthy environment. To remain fixed in one point of history is to be dead.
[quote]
Not really talking about Harmonic progressions or counterpoint here.I'm refering to the present understanding of the Harmonic series,and its use in sound engineering.During Bachs day,he cleary had a good grasp on balance and harmony.Today ofcourse the same rules apply.The harmonic series is an essential concept in making a 'nice' sound.How might our understanding of the Harmonic series affect music as time and technology goes by ?.In the domain of the engineer its possibilities are ten fold.This is change !
[quote]
Your statement: "The art is becoming less about the what notes are written" leaves me completely flabbergasted. What the notes are that's written is what the great debates on this forum have been about. It is what music is about. It's what we love and do for a living.
[quote]
Its what I love do for a living also.Its not an attack on when you do at all,though re-reading that I really should of phrased it better !Sorry if it offended !I've read a lot of the posts on this forum,and the community here really does seem warm,and inviting.Hope I haven't got of on the wrong foot ?
[quote]
Your question: "Will the next Great be the musician or the Engineer ?" There are many "Greats" today in both fields, as there are in all other fields. I don't see how one can negate the other. Again: apples and oranges.
[quote]
At present,yes.But I'm referring to the future !!Look at the way sound is being used today.Think about sound therapy for example.Consider that today we already a strong base of knowledge about the way sound has implications on both the body and the mind.How might this affect the way music is being written in 200 years from now ?.Again this will be in the engineers domain.But I'll bend here a little...this engineer will be both engineer and composer.
You know this was just a fleeting idea so please don't think I'm on some sort of wind up here !It's amazing to think how music will evolve,yes ?!
Kev
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 04:59:27 AM
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Hello Kev,
Sorry if I come across too strongly at times. I was trying to respond to the questions posed--and I was not offended by anything you wrote. just reacted strongly to some of it.
I think now that you've cleared a few things up, that what we are talking about is the relationship between "sound" and "music." Sure an sound engineer can produce certain sound patterns that can be used in treatment of some psychological diseases, etc. But would you go to a concert to hear such a "work?"
I don't understand your comment about dance music depending on frequencies. Of course it does, as does all music. Nor do I understand the comment about the composer and engineer being one and the same for that genre.
In one of my composition classes the professor played a tape recording of ice-covered trees clinking in the wind. After ten minutes or so she asked the class if this was "music." My response was: "No, it's a recording of ice-covered trees." Some students argued that it was music. They claimed that crashing waves on a shore was music as well. I guess I'm just dense, as I do not understand how the random pattern of ice-covered branches striking each other, or water molecules and sand striking each other can in any way be considered "music." Some people use the word "music" in a metaphorical sense to describe "nature's" sounds, but it is only a metaphor.
As for the future, I have no idea what it holds. However, I strongly believe that if there are humans around there will be people inventing music.
Obviously I do not understand what you mean by "Great." We are living in an historical period when all the arts are expanding rapidly. More "masterworks" are being produced every day around the world than were produced in decades in the early 20th century, or in the entire 19th century. Music is less concerned about "personalities" today and more concerned with quality.
I don't know what you mean by the present understand of the "harmonic series" and that rest of that paragraph, especially: "The harmonic series is an essential concept in making a 'nice' sound." You can make some pretty ugly sounds using the overtone series. And, of course the overtone series is part of the basic structure of music, whether we're talking about Bach's or today's understanding of harmony. Harmonic progressions are based on relationships to the overtone series. It's just a matter of how extreme the relationships are between the changing series that is, and has been, constantly evolving. For example: C major to G major is not a very great leap. C major to Db aug is a very large leap. Etc. A C maj triad played over an Eb maj triad produces an entirely different series of overtones.
I think we have a lot of misunderstandings going on here, but it is an interesting topic. (Two topics, actually: 1) engineering versus composition and 2) the evolution of music.
All my best,
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 09:21:04 AM
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actually, if you want to get a good grasp on just how LITTLE what we commonly know about music actually has to do with the "harmonic series", then read Paul Hindemith's book "The Craft of Musical Composition" book 1... he drones on and on and on... and... on... and.. on.. annd......... <wakes up suddenly> ON! about it.
And he explains (maybe a BIT too much at length) how the music we are used to hearing (ie: equal temperament, and all the other means of tuning we are used to) is affected by the harmonic series. From the parts I've been able to stay awake long enough to understand, we actually use very little of the harmonic series in either composition or tuning our instruments since the overtones become "out of tune" very quickly as you rise up in the series.
Anyways, I read this topic, then started the thread and said "oh no, not again", then I saw the mention of "dance music" and "engineers" and thought... well THAT doesn't apply to people who actually COMPOSE music.
This isn't a forum for techno/dance/trance people. It's for people who actually write their music down on paper.
And there are STILL lots of people who listen to music that isn't heavily engineered. The recording might be engineered, but the music isn't. And you need to differentiate between the two as they are quite distinct entities each with a life of its own.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 10:43:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
Anyways, I read this topic, then started the thread and said "oh no, not again", then I saw the mention of "dance music" and "engineers" and thought... well THAT doesn't apply to people who actually COMPOSE music.
This isn't a forum for techno/dance/trance people. It's for people who actually write their music down on paper.
And there are STILL lots of people who listen to music that isn't heavily engineered. The recording might be engineered, but the music isn't. And you need to differentiate between the two as they are quite distinct entities each with a life of its own.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
"Welcome to Compose Forums Composing, Arranging, and Orchestration"
Does music necessarily need to to written down to qualify as highly evolved, art music, excellent, etc?
Definately not. Take for example all the great jazz recordings that are available, the many recordings of Classical Indian ragas, etc.
Notation is simply a means of communicating the skeleton of the musical ideas that a composer has, and if someone is able to do the same using multi-track recording techniques then the music produced by such a project is equally valid.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 12:20:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
"Welcome to Compose Forums Composing, Arranging, and Orchestration"
Does music necessarily need to to written down to qualify as highly evolved, art music, excellent, etc?
Definately not. Take for example all the great jazz recordings that are available, the many recordings of Classical Indian ragas, etc.
Notation is simply a means of communicating the skeleton of the musical ideas that a composer has, and if someone is able to do the same using multi-track recording techniques then the music produced by such a project is equally valid.
---Matt
well, I shouldn't be surprised that you popped in and took my comment completely out of its context and decided to start a new argument.
why don't we save some time: from now on, don't comment on any of my posts.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 1:03:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
"Welcome to Compose Forums Composing, Arranging, and Orchestration"
Does music necessarily need to to written down to qualify as highly evolved, art music, excellent, etc?
Definately not. Take for example all the great jazz recordings that are available, the many recordings of Classical Indian ragas, etc.
Notation is simply a means of communicating the skeleton of the musical ideas that a composer has, and if someone is able to do the same using multi-track recording techniques then the music produced by such a project is equally valid.
---Matt
well, I shouldn't be surprised that you popped in and took my comment completely out of its context and decided to start a new argument.
why don't we save some time: from now on, don't comment on any of my posts.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
And give you carte blanche on this Forum? Not likely...
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 1:38:40 PM
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fine, I'll just leave then.
good-bye.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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n/a
deleted
1437 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 1:48:20 PM
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Well, now, even *I* have to comment here.
This is a forum about composing music. Just like it would be inappropriate to talk about the role of improvisation in a forum designed for writing comedy (unless the improv was used as a tool in which the dialog was then written down) so is talking about musical improvisation (once again, unless that is used as a tool for the writing down of such music).
It's kind of silly to bring up jazz and indian improvisation -- sure, they're musical and I even think tinkling ice trees are "musical" -- but neither group is music composition, which is the whole point of this forum.
People who want to talk about other forms of musical sounds should probably find another forum somewhere that deals with that (I'm guessing Northern Sounds has *something* along those lines -- they have everything else except for a good composition forum :>)
Mike Kelley
Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 2:06:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Music Man
Well, now, even *I* have to comment here.
This is a forum about composing music. Just like it would be inappropriate to talk about the role of improvisation in a forum designed for writing comedy (unless the improv was used as a tool in which the dialog was then written down) so is talking about musical improvisation (once again, unless that is used as a tool for the writing down of such music).
It's kind of silly to bring up jazz and indian improvisation -- sure, they're musical and I even think tinkling ice trees are "musical" -- but neither group is music composition, which is the whole point of this forum.
People who want to talk about other forms of musical sounds should probably find another forum somewhere that deals with that (I'm guessing Northern Sounds has *something* along those lines -- they have everything else except for a good composition forum :>)
Mike Kelley
Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your comments...I think if you were to talk to someone expert in Jazz and/or Classical Indian music they would take great offense to the notion that what they create is not music composition.
My point here is that notation is a very effective means of conveying musical ideas from the composer to the intended musicians.
However, before there was notation, there was music. And great music can still be created and preserved using other means besides western notation. For example, my son is quite fond of composing by mouse-clicking on a MIDI piano role rather than using Finale. Rest assured, I am on his case about this to a certain extent, however it does demonstrate that there are other ways to successfully do things than what it accepted as the norm.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 3:22:23 PM
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...and so here we go off topic again...
I don't even bother to respond to your posts anymore (except this one), Matt, because no matter what the topic of discussion is you hijack the thread to get an argument going about your pet peeves. Why not give everyone a break and either stick to the topic or don't post a response?
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 3:27:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ronan
...and so here we go off topic again...
I don't even bother to respond to your posts anymore (except this one), Matt, because no matter what the topic of discussion is you hijack the thread to get an argument going about your pet peeves. Why not give everyone a break and either stick to the topic or don't post a response?
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
Hi Ron,
The title of this thread is "The Role of Sound in Music". I fail too see why my making a case against the requirement that musical composition be notated is perceived as an attempt to hijack this topic.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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kev
Full Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 3:52:51 PM
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Hi Michael !
I find your attitude a little a bit agressive and on the defensive ?.
A quote
This isn't a forum for techno/dance/trance people. It's for people who actually write their music down on paper.
End of quote.
Just for the record I don't produce dance music,nor am I an engineer.I can however appreciate the creative approach of both arts,and feel the potential they hold.Other members have been welcoming.I suggest if you don't like you what you see here you can always do a search on google 'Beneficts of learning social skills'.
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 4:10:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kev
Hi Michael !
I find your attitude a little a bit agressive and on the defensive ?.
A quote
This isn't a forum for techno/dance/trance people. It's for people who actually write their music down on paper.
End of quote.
Just for the record I don't produce dance music,nor am I an engineer.I can however appreciate the creative approach of both arts,and feel the potential they hold.Other members have been welcoming.I suggest if you don't like you what you see here you can always do a search on google 'Beneficts of learning social skills'.
One thing I might add is that there may be a nomenclature problem going on here as to what we all mean by an "engineer" in this context.
I believe when Kev uses this term, he is referring to the person who, among other things, determines the volume levels for the various tracks of a multi-track recording. In my own experience, the person ultimately in charge of these decisions has all the power to make or break a project. Generally speaking, when laying something down using this method in the setting of a recording studio, there is a lot of garbage that someone with a keen ear and excellent sense of taste must sift through in order to bring out the material that makes a recording project come to life.
Even in a pop band where the musicians may have a wide variation of ability and musical sophistication, there is almost always an "engineer" or "producer" who really knows his/her stuff and gets paid the big bucks to create a winning cut or two.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 5:09:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kev
Hi Michael !
I find your attitude a little a bit agressive and on the defensive ?.
A quote
This isn't a forum for techno/dance/trance people. It's for people who actually write their music down on paper.
End of quote.
Just for the record I don't produce dance music,nor am I an engineer.I can however appreciate the creative approach of both arts,and feel the potential they hold.Other members have been welcoming.I suggest if you don't like you what you see here you can always do a search on google 'Beneficts of learning social skills'.
actually, you start your own original post with "Well I'm sorry if this will offend"... so don't be SURPRISED when people ARE offended.
since you chose to read only a small portion of my response to your original thread, I will take that to mean that you are actually completely disinterested in any actual discussion about the topic and only wished to spout your own limited views on the topic.
You are the one who brought up the role of the "engineer" in music. As someone who has spent his entire life working at BEING a musician and not an "engineer", yes, I can quite adamantly say that I take offense to the sort of things you are implying in your post.
Music has evolved. It has not suddenly transformed itself into uniquely a grouping of sounds to be manipulated by some glorified technician calling himself a "sound engineer".
You are asking for answers to questions that cannot be answered within the confines of a single book, much less within the scope of an internet discussion group.
"Clarity, form and balance" cannot be applied in the SAME way to "sound" as they are to MUSIC. That is like saying that form and structure can be applied in the same way to architecture and to a mound of sand.
You are making comparisons between apples and lug nuts.
If you find my response "unfriendly", well, then don't start threads where you basically belittle the work of forum participants and reduce it to pure constructivism. I dare you to go to a forum for doctors and start a topic about how "just eating right should be enough to cure any disease". Let's see what kind of courteous welcome you get in THAT context.
As for Matt, I will not be answering any more of his posts, no matter what he says. he has been a thorn in the side of this forum since his arrival and has incessantly been the instigator of pointless arguments and insulting rhetoric. To the forum moderator, for this last paragraph I apologize but it had to come out at some point.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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n/a
deleted
1437 Posts |
Posted - 13 August 2007 : 6:08:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
[quote]
Thanks for your comments...I think if you were to talk to someone expert in Jazz and/or Classical Indian music they would take great offense to the notion that what they create is not music composition.
No, Matt, you're wrong. I've talked with many great Jazz musicians and none of them ever say they are composing music -- they say they are MAKING music.
They know very well the difference, and I'm afraid they would simply laugh at you as someone who just doesn't get it. Some of the greats that I've had the priviledge to know were also great composers, and took great pride in their ability to notate their music, but never once confused the two, as you have done.
And in any case I always have the last word here, so I'm shutting down this thread (one of the privledges of being the janitor -- the only one, in fact). So I'm always right <bg>
Mike Kelley
Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school |
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