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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
 Posted - 11 July 2007 : 1:01:21 PM
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Since we haven't had any of these in a while, I thought I'd post a new mini-challenge, inspired by teh "thought-provoking" discussions that have been going on in some other threads.
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The idea is, write a very short piece for piano, nor more than 16-20 measures long, using the above phrase as a starting point. The interesting thing is, keep track of what you are doing when you write it, and include a mini-analysis of your piece, stating for example what techniques you used, how you harmonized it, what approach you took, etc...
I would LIKE to add that the goal is to write something as "lyrical" and "melodious" as possible, but I don't want to limit the creativity of members. So, if you're not feeling particularly lyrical nor melodious, then, GO FOR IT! Or not. Whatever. For sure. Totally.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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celloingshostako
Silver Member
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 12 July 2007 : 08:47:25 AM
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Michel, can we change the rhythm of your sample? Or would that defeat the purpose of the challenge?
-Hans |
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Hal Owen
Moderator
USA
1808 Posts |
Posted - 12 July 2007 : 10:41:51 AM
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OK, I'll bite. I seem to be in a walzy mood today. The opening phrase is in the right hand with a pattern of sixth to accompany it in the left hand. The second phrase has the melody in the left hand and the accompanying pattern moves to the right. This phrase is based on the first, but it has some sequences to extend it to a G pedal. The R.H. figure is varied by using 3ds and 5ths. A brief return in the R. H. to the opening melody ends the piece.
The piece is chromatic but quite tonal to my ears. It begins in C and ends in C but wanders through many other brief tonal "foci." The harmony is basically triadic, but the cross-relation in the original phrase suggested more cross-relations as the piece develops.
As a dance-like piece, the rhythm asks for a certain regular emphasis on the downbeat, but it is softened here and there with hemiola rhythms (2+2+2). I intended the little interruption at the penultimate bar to prepares the ending in a somewhat jocular way.
Phrasing and dynamics assist the dance-like mood and help to delineate the phrase structure - ABA, where the B is longer than either A phrases.
That should about cover it.
BTW, the melody would not be very amenable to serial technique because of its triadic and tonal implications.
Hal
File Attachment: HO_MiniGame.mus (84.75 KB)
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Finale 2006 file
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File Attachment: HO_MiniGame.pdf (30.88 KB)
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Edited by - Hal Owen on 12 July 2007 2:18:16 PM |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 12 July 2007 : 12:20:24 PM
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Hans, absolutely ANYTHING you want to do with it....
but "justify" your actions with it.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 13 July 2007 : 4:24:03 PM
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Hi Michel,
You knew I couldn't resist. (I haven't checked out Hal's contribution yet, because I didn't want to be influenced.)
How I done do-ed it:
A: Michel's sequence is in the bass. The harmony/counter-melody is in D# Locrian. Pretty standard harmony, so I don't think I have to go into detail. A descending motif in keeping with the romantic mood.
B: Michel's sequence is now in the highest part. The harmony is now based on G# Dorian (a bit brighter in tone than Locrian). Again, nothing special about the harmony, except that I go into a quartal sequence in measure 16 to "open up" the feeling.
In the recapitulation, the bass melody is carried an octave higher than originally, and we are back in D# Locrian, ending on its characteristic diminished chord.
| File not found: Michel_Ron.MUS |
| File not found: MIchel_Ron.pdf |
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 13 July 2007 : 4:48:16 PM
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what I find most interesting is that both of you chose to do music that has a strong triplet feel - either a waltz or a piece with lots of lovely slow triplets.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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Hal Owen
Moderator
USA
1808 Posts |
Posted - 13 July 2007 : 8:13:02 PM
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Interesting: Both pieces are roughly in rounded binary structure and both have strong modal inclinations. In addition, the original phrase moves in register between phrases. Both exhibit development of just a few motives or musical ideas. Both make use of tertian intervals (3ds and 6ths). On a continuum from tonal to atonal, both pieces tend more toward tonal than atonal, though mine certainly would seem a little more obviously tending towrd tonality. The Locrean mode tends the other way, especially at the cadence.
In spite of the similarities, they are quite different. Some differences I see: Texture is a bit more dense with expanded range in Ron's, thin and limited in range in mine; rhythm a bit more complex in Ron's; Mood, perhaps a bit lighter in mine. What do you think?
Hal
Harold Owen
mailto:hjowen@uoregon.edu
Visit my web site at:
http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2007 : 2:43:39 PM
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A further note on mine. I found the final D - D# so compelling as a cadence, even though the distance between them was a major 7th instead of a minor 2nd, that I kept seeing it as Cx - D#. I would have preferred D - Eb, but I didn't want to enharmonically change Michel's givens. Whatever, the D# was just too suggestive as a tonic. If the sequence had been reversed I would have likely seen the C as the tonic (B -E -C strongly suggests that). If I wanted to change those notes as hinting at a tonal centre, I would have had to do something more drastic with the surrounding harmony.
Anyhow, I hope someone on reading this will realize that a tonic is not necessarily the centrepiece of an I - IV - V and that there are many ways to approach and establish one.
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 08:11:25 AM
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Looks like you can squeeze blood out of a turnip after all, thanks to Scarlatti and company:
www.WeissConcerto.com/audio/challenges/Matt_Weiss_MiniGame.mp3
File Attachment: Matt_Weiss_MiniGame.pdf (35.07 KB)
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Analysis available upon request.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com |
Edited by - pranakasha on 18 July 2007 05:08:55 AM |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 08:40:49 AM
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considering this is in the 20th/21st century section of the forum, Matt, I would say that your submission for this mini-game - while cute - misses the mark by a mile.
the goal of the exercise was not to camouflage the nature of the thematic material but rather to exploit it and bring it out. the thematic material was not meant to be hidden in the midst of traditionalist ramblings. it was meant to generate ideas for ALL aspects of the mini-piece.
were you not interested in seeing how the mini-tone-row would work at generating harmony?
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 10:28:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
considering this is in the 20th/21st century section of the forum, Matt, I would say that your submission for this mini-game - while cute - misses the mark by a mile.
the goal of the exercise was not to camouflage the nature of the thematic material but rather to exploit it and bring it out. the thematic material was not meant to be hidden in the midst of traditionalist ramblings. it was meant to generate ideas for ALL aspects of the mini-piece.
were you not interested in seeing how the mini-tone-row would work at generating harmony?
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
Dear Michel,
As this is your thread, you are free to give me whatever grade you see fit. However, I personally am quite proud of what I accomplished given how terrible the supplied series of notes is as far as any kind of melody is concerned.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 10:47:17 AM
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there is no such a thing as a "terrible series of notes".. only a terrible composer incapable of making music with the material.
as a friendly bit of advice, if you don't like the 20th/21st century forum, stay out of it. this is NOT the place for you to be slinging your insults.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 10:51:56 AM
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here is my own little piece.
I treated the set of notes as a sort of imperfect series, so the score has here and there little "O" markings... those are the transpositions of my set of notes.
I like to bend rules a bit so I went with a less than strict usage of serial theory - notes did not necessarily appear in the correct order, however they were used intact within the "note-grouping". So a measure might be marked as the 1st transposition of the set, all notes of that measure are from the set, and I DID try to use every ntoe of the set every time it appeared (except at the fragmentary end).
I don't think this approach would work with a large-scale work, or something for orchestra. It would probably make keeping the material cohesive much more difficult.
I was looking for a meditative sort of colour for my little piece, with a little touch of romantic flourish.
here is the recording:
http://www.dosblanc.ca/music/examples/mini_challenge.mp3
Here is the score PDF.
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Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
Edited by - qccowboy on 17 July 2007 11:02:38 AM |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 11:37:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
here is my own little piece.
I treated the set of notes as a sort of imperfect series, so the score has here and there little "O" markings... those are the transpositions of my set of notes.
I like to bend rules a bit so I went with a less than strict usage of serial theory - notes did not necessarily appear in the correct order, however they were used intact within the "note-grouping". So a measure might be marked as the 1st transposition of the set, all notes of that measure are from the set, and I DID try to use every ntoe of the set every time it appeared (except at the fragmentary end).
I don't think this approach would work with a large-scale work, or something for orchestra. It would probably make keeping the material cohesive much more difficult.
I was looking for a meditative sort of colour for my little piece, with a little touch of romantic flourish.
here is the recording:
http://www.dosblanc.ca/music/examples/mini_challenge.mp3
Here is the score PDF.
File Attachment: mini-challenge.pdf (50.22 KB)
Uploaded on 5/8/2010 11:44:19 PM
Downloaded 33 time(s).
Category:Tutorials
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Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
Dear Michel,
Despite the fact that we are always at each other's throats, I am forced to admit that this piece is exceedingly beautiful.
Great job!
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 12:04:54 PM
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I think ALL the pieces submitted for this mini-game are beautiful.
and it just goes to show that you don't need to "understand" something to feel something from experiencing it.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 12:25:16 PM
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Okay, I am stepping in with my moderator hat here.
Dear Matt,
The reason the “20th-21st Century Classical” forum was created was so that those interested in the music of the past 100 years could discuss and share ideas without being harassed by those who have no interest in the subject.
Your submission à la Scarlatti and your subsequent dismissal of the entire exercise as a “terrible series of notes” is completely out of line. It is no more appropriate than if I were to respond to a similar exercise in the “Classical-Romantic (pre-1910)” forum that clearly called for a common practice harmonic structure, submitted my response à la Alban Berg (spelling corrected as per Louis), and then attacked the original premise of the exercise, tossing in a few choice insults along the way.
I am not defending any participate here: they are big boys who can look after themselves, but I am defending the purpose and reason for the existence of this particular forum. If you do not like the topics presented here, then do not participate. It’s that simple.
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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Edited by - ronan on 17 July 2007 4:18:56 PM |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 1:17:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
I think ALL the pieces submitted for this mini-game are beautiful.
and it just goes to show that you don't need to "understand" something to feel something from experiencing it.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
Is your clarinet sonata done yet? Now I'm dying to hear the rest of it. Despite how much we are beating each other up these days, I have to admit that you seem to have found "the zone" in your composing and are starting to write some really kick-ass stuff.
It seems that you have really absorbed all those techniques that you have learned over the years and now are able to consciously or subconsciously apply them to your music with great skill and sensitivity.
Music at its best is a vibration of the soul, something organic that lives and breathes, and I dare say that you may prove many of my arguments wrong not by skilled debate, but by example.
Great music speaks for itself. It does not need to be propped up by words, and it is impervious to any insult.
Now what were we arguing about?
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 17 July 2007 1:18:32 PM |
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LouisDekker
Full Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 3:38:54 PM
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Speaking of Alban Berg (I'm not sure if that's who you meant, Ron ), for the first mili-second of Michel's beautiful piece, I thought that I was listening to that gorgeous piano sonata of Berg, I'm not sure if I understand any of it, but that first lush chord made me pay attention.... Anyway, great music from all. |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 3:47:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LouisDekker
Speaking of Alban Berg (I'm not sure if that's who you meant, Ron), for the first mili-second of Michel's beautiful piece, I thought that I was listening to that gorgeous piano sonata of Berg, I'm not sure if I understand any of it, but that first lush chord made me pay attention.... Anyway, great music from all.
Why thank-you!
You know, I don't even think I've ever heard the Berg piano sonata.
Although I am an absolute fanatic for his violin concerto - it is without a doubt my absolute favourite piece of music.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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LouisDekker
Full Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 17 July 2007 : 4:20:07 PM
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Do yourself a favor and listen to this sonate, here are the opening bars....
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 18 July 2007 : 05:04:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
quote:
Originally posted by LouisDekker
Speaking of Alban Berg (I'm not sure if that's who you meant, Ron), for the first mili-second of Michel's beautiful piece, I thought that I was listening to that gorgeous piano sonata of Berg, I'm not sure if I understand any of it, but that first lush chord made me pay attention.... Anyway, great music from all.
Why thank-you!
You know, I don't even think I've ever heard the Berg piano sonata.
Although I am an absolute fanatic for his violin concerto - it is without a doubt my absolute favourite piece of music.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
Well I finally got off my high horse and ordered his violin concerto from Amazon.com. Another friend of mine has been on my case as well to be familiar with this piece.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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