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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
 Posted - 04 July 2007 : 12:42:47 PM
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Now, since the imitation issue has been heavily discussed (see the "music in the future" thread, pp. 5-8), I would be interested in questions like these: Isn't it conceivable to imitate another composer's music if there are good reasons to do so? What could those reasons be? In which way should they become substantiated?
For an example, go to
http://www.notionmusic.com/downloads/music/Ueckert-RondoHarpOrch.mp3
Hansen |
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 04 July 2007 : 1:16:26 PM
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I don't see how that harp piece "explains" or develops the argument in question.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 04 July 2007 : 1:32:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
I don't see how that harp piece "explains" or develops the argument in question.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
The harp piece seems to "explain" nothing. But it seems to corroborate the question – what kind of arguments in question could be posed with the help of it?
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chambermusic
Moderator
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 04 July 2007 : 9:22:38 PM
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To some extent I imitate the music of Antonin Dvorak. The primary reason I am unable to say that I imitate it all the time is that Dvorak was so much more talented than I am. On the other hand, I have learned a number of his techniques and hope to learn more, or at least become more fluid in the sort of techniques that he mastered. Do I want to write exactly like him? No, not really. I want to write symphonic music, chamber music and solo piano music with the authority that Dvorak did, and in a somewhat similar style. Yes, I want to write original tunes with original accompiaments, and have a little bit of distinguishing features that make it my music.
David Young
David Young
Composer of romantic style chamber and orchestral music |
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2007 : 06:03:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chambermusic
To some extent I imitate the music of Antonin Dvorak. The primary reason I am unable to say that I imitate it all the time is that Dvorak was so much more talented than I am. On the other hand, I have learned a number of his techniques and hope to learn more, or at least become more fluid in the sort of techniques that he mastered. Do I want to write exactly like him? No, not really. I want to write symphonic music, chamber music and solo piano music with the authority that Dvorak did, and in a somewhat similar style. Yes, I want to write original tunes with original accompiaments, and have a little bit of distinguishing features that make it my music.
David Young
David Young
Composer of romantic style chamber and orchestral music
There are two strong arguments in your comment: (1) Learn the techniques from an authority to eventually master them, and (2) Find distinguishing features which make, in the end, the music your music! In developing your skills more and more on this basis you will, if you want so, succeed in a personal style which will be yours in any case.
I think, this is one of the most intelligent ways to learn composing (after having mastered the elements of music theory).
With respect to the earlier presented harp rondo there are some interesting questions which can be posed to it: Is it, formally and stylistically, a coherent piece even if you know that it consists of various, but unrelated, sketches (unrelated with respect to instrumentation and musical form of the resulting piece)? Could the imitated composer have written the piece in a similar vein? Is there anything inside the composition which would make it personal?
What do you think?
Hansen
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2007 : 06:46:19 AM
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my sense is that you are trying to get feedback on this piece.
is this your music?
you KNOW you could simply post it and ask for feedback.
those with no interest in historicist practices will simply ignore it, so there's no danger of being flamed for writing music in a "classical" style.
If you're looking for confirmation that it could "pass" for something written in the 18th/19th century, then you would need the opinion of an expert on music from that era.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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Will Denayer
Silver Member
Ireland
183 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2007 : 08:36:53 AM
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| I listened to say 75 per cent of your piece and I think it really shows talent and promise. There are some things in the orchestration that I do not like - at a certain point I couldn't figure out which instruments were exactly playing - but overall this is a nice rondo - although, I hope you will not mind me saying - completely conventional. As a student, there is no better way to study composition than to imitate the masters - write a piece in the style of ... (Schubert, Debussy, you name it), not a theme or a piece of a piece but a whole movement. |
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 06 July 2007 : 06:28:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
my sense is that you are trying to get feedback on this piece.
No, Michel, I'm not fishing for compliments (or feedback, in this case).
I have to admit that I have set a trap for me in presenting the rondo piece or, moreover, in phrasing this topic's title as I did. What I'm truely interested in is not so much imitating the music of a particular composer but his actual way of composing, his step-by-step process of imaging the musical content of a piece and its externalization by playing it on an instrument or by writing it down on paper or, nowadays, inputting it into a computer. In this way I pick up drafts and sketches of a composer, in particular by Mozart (who has left hundreds of them), and get to work on them by trying to complete them as new compositions (often for another instrumentation or even another genre). In this vein, I'm less a composer than an "assembler" of fragmentary pieces into a new whole – while simultaneously being an "introspectator" of my doing so.
This exactly has been the case with the harp rondo (which is, incidentally, the third movement of a concerto for harp and orchestra after Mozart sketches).
Hansen
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2007 : 09:21:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hansen
quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
my sense is that you are trying to get feedback on this piece.
No, Michel, I'm not fishing for compliments (or feedback, in this case).
I have to admit that I have set a trap for me in presenting the rondo piece or, moreover, in phrasing this topic's title as I did. What I'm truely interested in is not so much imitating the music of a particular composer but his actual way of composing, his step-by-step process of imaging the musical content of a piece and its externalization by playing it on an instrument or by writing it down on paper or, nowadays, inputting it into a computer. In this way I pick up drafts and sketches of a composer, in particular by Mozart (who has left hundreds of them), and get to work on them by trying to complete them as new compositions (often for another instrumentation or even another genre). In this vein, I'm less a composer than an "assembler" of fragmentary pieces into a new whole – while simultaneously being an "introspectator" of my doing so.
This exactly has been the case with the harp rondo (which is, incidentally, the third movement of a concerto for harp and orchestra after Mozart sketches).
Hansen
Dear Hansen,
Well now you've gotten me completely interested in your projects.
Is it possible to post your score indicating which areas are Mozart's and which are your own?
The piece that immediately comes to mind is Mozart's Requiem. It would be very interesting to see if anyone else could improve upon Süssmayr's reconstruction...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2007 : 1:20:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
Dear Hansen,
Well now you've gotten me completely interested in your projects.
Is it possible to post your score indicating which areas are Mozart's and which are your own?
The piece that immediately comes to mind is Mozart's Requiem. It would be very interesting to see if anyone else could improve upon Süssmayr's reconstruction...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
The rondo includes four different drafts and sketches by Mozart: In the beginning a draft of 38 measures in piano notation (originally intended for the final movement of the piano concerto in D minor, K. 466), at 1' 46" time-stamp 16 measures in piano notation from the finger exercises K. 266b/48, at 3' 10" time-stamp 13 measures of a fragmentary fugue for piano (K. 626b/14), and at 5' 05" an eight measures sketch of a melody in D minor (no K. number given, but an indication as a fragmentary piece: Fr 1785d). I developed the whole composition in its harmonization, instrumentation, and formal extension (with key changes, D minor, F major, and in the end the progression from the D minor melody to its D major transposition, and with time changes – cut-time vs. 3/8 meter in the fugue fragment).
Mozart's Requiem is indeed an interesting case in dealing with Mozart's fragmentary legacy. Not only contempory composers tried to complete the fragment (Eybler) or really did it (Süssmayr) but also many from our times contributed corrections, improvements, and reconstructions (to name just the most prominent ones: Franz Beyer, Marius Flothuis, Robbins Landon, Richard Maunder, Duncan Druce, Robert Levin – all have been recorded on CD repeatedly). However, those endeavors show that there cannot be a final version of the Requiem which would be truely in correspondence with Mozart's intentions – because we cannot know them.
Hansen |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2007 : 4:17:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hansen
quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
Dear Hansen,
Well now you've gotten me completely interested in your projects.
Is it possible to post your score indicating which areas are Mozart's and which are your own?
The piece that immediately comes to mind is Mozart's Requiem. It would be very interesting to see if anyone else could improve upon Süssmayr's reconstruction...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
The rondo includes four different drafts and sketches by Mozart: In the beginning a draft of 38 measures in piano notation (originally intended for the final movement of the piano concerto in D minor, K. 466), at 1' 46" time-stamp 16 measures in piano notation from the finger exercises K. 266b/48, at 3' 10" time-stamp 13 measures of a fragmentary fugue for piano (K. 626b/14), and at 5' 05" an eight measures sketch of a melody in D minor (no K. number given, but an indication as a fragmentary piece: Fr 1785d). I developed the whole composition in its harmonization, instrumentation, and formal extension (with key changes, D minor, F major, and in the end the progression from the D minor melody to its D major transposition, and with time changes – cut-time vs. 3/8 meter in the fugue fragment).
My first impression was that the piece sounded too homogenous. However now that I know that it was actually a patchwork of a number of unrelated pieces, I would consider that a victory on your part.
A very interesting idea--however I do have a philosophical problem with the premise, if the goal is to create a piece that is actually to be performed.
I strongly believe that a composition must have a common thread that holds it together, especially in Mozart's case. The themes and musical ideas must relate to each other somehow. Therefore, no matter how crafty you are, trying to patch together a handful of unrelated pieces is doomed to failure.
If the goal is something other than adding to the 18th century repretoire, then I would say that it is a fascinating and worthwhile thing to explore...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2007 : 05:58:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
My first impression was that the piece sounded too homogenous. However now that I know that it was actually a patchwork of a number of unrelated pieces, I would consider that a victory on your part.
A very interesting idea--however I do have a philosophical problem with the premise, if the goal is to create a piece that is actually to be performed.
I strongly believe that a composition must have a common thread that holds it together, especially in Mozart's case. The themes and musical ideas must relate to each other somehow. Therefore, no matter how crafty you are, trying to patch together a handful of unrelated pieces is doomed to failure.
If the goal is something other than adding to the 18th century repretoire, then I would say that it is a fascinating and worthwhile thing to explore...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
The homogeneity derives from the plain succession of themes (A, B, A', C, A", D, D*) and their associated tonalities (D minor, F major, and D minor/major in the end).
Now, how does a patchwork of originally unrelated pieces (i.e. a kind of pasticcio) become an integrated whole? Well, exactly by the way of homogeneity as described above. There is no other way to relate melodically and rhythmically different themes to each other than by proper tonal progression. [BTW, Matt, remember my remark to the seemingly second theme of the first movement of your clarinet concerto as being contrapuntally superimposed to a variant of the main theme in the minor key.]
Whether this harp concerto after Mozart sketches will become something to add to the 18th century repertoire is a minor question for me. Nevertheless, it will soon go to be performed by one of the finest young harpists in Germany.
Hansen |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2007 : 08:48:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hansen
quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
My first impression was that the piece sounded too homogenous. However now that I know that it was actually a patchwork of a number of unrelated pieces, I would consider that a victory on your part.
A very interesting idea--however I do have a philosophical problem with the premise, if the goal is to create a piece that is actually to be performed.
I strongly believe that a composition must have a common thread that holds it together, especially in Mozart's case. The themes and musical ideas must relate to each other somehow. Therefore, no matter how crafty you are, trying to patch together a handful of unrelated pieces is doomed to failure.
If the goal is something other than adding to the 18th century repretoire, then I would say that it is a fascinating and worthwhile thing to explore...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
The homogeneity derives from the plain succession of themes (A, B, A', C, A", D, D*) and their associated tonalities (D minor, F major, and D minor/major in the end).
Now, how does a patchwork of originally unrelated pieces (i.e. a kind of pasticcio) become an integrated whole? Well, exactly by the way of homogeneity as described above. There is no other way to relate melodically and rhythmically different themes to each other than by proper tonal progression. [BTW, Matt, remember my remark to the seemingly second theme of the first movement of your clarinet concerto as being contrapuntally superimposed to a variant of the main theme in the minor key.]
Whether this harp concerto after Mozart sketches will become something to add to the 18th century repertoire is a minor question for me. Nevertheless, it will soon go to be performed by one of the finest young harpists in Germany.
Hansen
Congratulations on the pending performance! Will they be playing the Rondo only or the whole concerto?
Also, I have another question: The legend is that Mozart completely composed his music in his head and that by the time he wrote it down, he was simply taking dictation. How true is this? Examining the original scores, do you see corrections or areas that appear too embryonic?
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2007 : 1:01:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pranakasha
Congratulations on the pending performance! Will they be playing the Rondo only or the whole concerto?
The whole concerto of three movements, of course. (However, the first and second movements still need some work to finish them.)
quote:
Also, I have another question: The legend is that Mozart completely composed his music in his head and that by the time he wrote it down, he was simply taking dictation. How true is this? Examining the original scores, do you see corrections or areas that appear too embryonic?
You say it, it's a legend – and not a fact – that Mozart completely composed his music in his head so that its writing down is simply an act of dictation.
Examining Mozart's original scores show that he heavily used sketches and drafts (there are hundreds of them) and did cancellations here and there. As one can see by his use of different inks and pens Mozart regularly worked "in layers": At first writing down the leading voices (i.e. melody and bass) and afterwards the inner voices and filler sounds – and in doing so, the whole composition evolves over time. Although Mozart seems to always have a clear-cut image of the developing composition, his step-by-step process of writing down is an act of "composing by doing notation" (similar to our ubiquitous "learning by doing") – the composition evolves by consciously doing notation.
Hansen
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qccowboy
Platinum Member
Canada
1821 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2007 : 2:17:07 PM
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that single myth about Mozart and his compositional ability has caused more harm than anything else to innumerable composition students through-out the world over the ages.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca |
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Hansen
Bronze Member
Germany
69 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2007 : 2:23:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by qccowboy
that single myth about Mozart and his compositional ability has caused more harm than anything else to innumerable composition students through-out the world over the ages.
Michel R. Edward
compositeur
Ville Saint-Laurent, Québec
www.dosblanc.ca
Oh, you are so completely right! |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 13 July 2007 : 04:54:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hansen
quote:
Originally posted by chambermusic
To some extent I imitate the music of Antonin Dvorak. The primary reason I am unable to say that I imitate it all the time is that Dvorak was so much more talented than I am. On the other hand, I have learned a number of his techniques and hope to learn more, or at least become more fluid in the sort of techniques that he mastered. Do I want to write exactly like him? No, not really. I want to write symphonic music, chamber music and solo piano music with the authority that Dvorak did, and in a somewhat similar style. Yes, I want to write original tunes with original accompiaments, and have a little bit of distinguishing features that make it my music.
David Young
David Young
Composer of romantic style chamber and orchestral music
There are two strong arguments in your comment: (1) Learn the techniques from an authority to eventually master them, and (2) Find distinguishing features which make, in the end, the music your music! In developing your skills more and more on this basis you will, if you want so, succeed in a personal style which will be yours in any case.
I think, this is one of the most intelligent ways to learn composing (after having mastered the elements of music theory).
I am in complete agreement with Hansen.
Children begin to learn their native tongue through imitation. As they grow older, they begin to understand what they are saying and start to create their own sentences. Later on, they learn the rules of grammar in school. By the time they are 7 or 8 years old, their use of language is their own, yet they continue to build their vocabulary by hearing new words and phrases, imitating their use, gaining understanding, and absorbing them into their being.
The same process occurs for learning social skills, and really anything else.
So it is quite natural for a composer to do the same...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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