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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
 Posted - 01 April 2007 : 12:36:15 PM
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To me "inspiration" is becoming aware of something I'd like to write about. That could be anything, from a simple construct to a major event, but it has to hold my attention. I need to have a purpose, other than just making music for music's sake. Otherwise, the work will tail off and never get completed (and I have lots of uncompleted works on my hard drive).
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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celloingshostako
Silver Member
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 01 April 2007 : 12:37:49 PM
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I believe inspiration covers an extremely broad range of qualities that maybe we should have specified long before getting into this discussion lol. I think it includes all of those things that you have listed, and maybe it can be generalized as anything that contributes to creation, or any kind of achievement really. Musically, I think inspiration is whatever gets the gears moving in your head. Though I do not believe that musical inspiration includes "trial and error" composition, where you plot out some stuff, see if it works, and go logically from there. I'll write some more on this later, but I've gtg to rehersal now. *Happy April fools everyone*
~Hans |
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JRG
Full Member
Finland
20 Posts |
Posted - 04 April 2007 : 06:45:43 AM
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Interesting thread. First of all, what is the perception that music is getting more and more dissonant based on? I don't see any real life proof for that. I haven't heard a single piece composed in the 21st century that would be more dissonant than serial music composed in the 1950s. That was almost 60 years ago. That music is as new today as Bach's Kunst der Fuge was when Beethoven's Eroica was first performed. Yet, it is still considered modern and by many thought to describe all modern music. One reason to this could be the educational system. At least where I study, the course in modern music history ended around the year 1960. The teacher simply didn't have any knowledge of music composed later than that, because his source books (that he has used for the past 30 years) were written in the 1960s. That leaves a gap of almost 50 years that many musicians graduating from my school doesn't have a clue about. I've heard this is the case in many other schools as well.
In these 50 years a lot have happened. I certainly don't see a progress towards more dissonance, rather away from it. Many composers who were trained by hardcore serialist in the 1970s, and started their careers as such in the 1980s, are today composing music that is much more pleasant on the average ear. It doesn't mean that they are composing classical tonal music, but that they have found new ways to use the theoretical ideas invented in the 20th century for musical expression. As Michel pointed out, many of these techniques were not developed from a musical point of view, but today I see musical points of view developed from these techniques.
Then another question: What is dissonance? Normally the term is used for sounds that the ear isn't used to hear, which is a totally different thing. Actually the equally tempered piano is extremely dissonant, but the ear is so used to the sound that it doesn't care about it (if you have access to a tuneable synthesizer, then try playing a perfectly tuned major chord first a few times and then switch to the same chord using the standard equal temper and you'll see what I mean). The true harmonic minor seventh is so far from the standard scale that most people would hear it as a dissonance, even if it really isn't.
Hans, in your writings I see also another thing that I've encountered frequently in attitudes towards new music. First you pretty much judge it as "random noices", but then confess that you certainly enjoy a lot of experimental or abstract music and find much of it fascinating. I've thought a bit about this lately as it seems to be quite common that people feel like this. Even if they've heard a few fascinating pieces that they've enjoyed, they still keep their prejudices that it's all crap, with a few rare exceptions. Sure, I've heard a lot of crap composed in the last 50 years also. Probably more pieces that I haven't been able to enjoy than pieces I've actually liked. But hasn't this always been like this? Also in the 18th-19th century a lot of crap was composed, it's just that it is forgotten already by now. Evolution has left the strongest to survive, therefore we only hear music of great quality from that period. New music hasn't gone through this process yet, it is all still here. But will it be in 200 years? Probably by then a few composers of the early 21st century have survived as great masters, and people will think that that is what all music sounded like in the early 21st century.
Hmm, this post didn't contribute much to the topic... well, here's another interesting aspect of the future of music:
http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/story/0,,2048916,00.html
I'd have a lot to comment on that article as well, but I'll let you digest it first.
Roger
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ShandorJohnson
Silver Member
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 18 April 2007 : 4:59:10 PM
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I dont know if its quite appropriate for this topic. Yet, the oddest thing about this current century, is that the only Rock Musical/Opera has been made by a couple of fat funny people known as Tenacious D. Forms of music which came from the Blues will replace the Classical trends, and the music from those same Blues, will become the next cultural triumph. While these songs that come from the Blues inspired Genres may not be accepted as music, or even great, it is the cultural boundries which define the greats in later generations.
If you recall Beethoven, you'ld recognize that society is not always keen for change, and not always that bright. Man did believe the World was once flat. Interpretation causes these greats, so even when the people say his/her music is bad, it is immortality for the sound. If nobody had hated Beethoven, we would know very little of his works, because only a handful really enjoyed his works in his life time.
People do tend to cling to the past; as Buddha put it, "What have we left in a world where everyone is clinging to their self-destructive past?" In America we have the Republicans, who fear the most change. There are reasons why music becomes the great, and it has to do with how the audience interprets the sounds they are hearing. In the 1970's, the newly popular drugs tended to enhance the senses; thus they made Clockwork Orange, where a deranged lunitic kills, and seduces women, while snorting coke and listening to Beethoven and Crieg. Music such as rap draws on the anger and timidness of people in the world. It may not be the greatest now, but it may one day become the best thing.
Try not to judge yourself against the world, but the world against yourself. Trends and people change every generation, so only follow them if you seek riches; but if you want to set them, ignore the current ones and create your own. People like Lizst and Bach were not accepted by everyone, but they made music because it is what they loved.
Will- Analytical thought towards music may not be the best aproach, although Kyle Gass is classically trained to play Rock and Roll. |
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JRG
Full Member
Finland
20 Posts |
Posted - 20 April 2007 : 04:08:22 AM
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To answer the original question of this thread, I believe the concept of dissonance will keep changing, like it always have. The major third was once considered a dissonance, today many people don't feel anything dissonant in intervals like the major second and minor seventh. As a result we will be moving more and more toward microtonality. Quarter tones are already used frequently by many of the best living composers I know, with amazing result. Many professional musicians read quarter tones just as easily as normal chromatic music, those who don't will have to learn, especially if they play in any Finnish symphony orchestra. New instruments are developed to answer these demands. One of our top accordion artists will soon have a quarter tone accordion, I'm looking forward to the music composed for that.
I do not believe that any blues related style will replace classical music. There will always be a need for orchestral music. I just hope that audiences around the world would one day learn to listen to music instead of listening to musicians, like they tend to do today.
Roger
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zac100
Bronze Member
81 Posts |
Posted - 20 April 2007 : 07:02:12 AM
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Speaking of microtones -- Robert Van Sice (teaches at Yale and Peabody) has developed a quarter-tone marimba. I think the development of the instrument had something to do with composer James Wood. The instrument has a third "level" of keys, but I don't remember if it had a quarter-tone between every pair of "regular" notes or not. I've seen some pictures of the instrument, but have never heard it, or seen it in person. Seems to me that the logistics of playing this instrument would be pretty limited (as in, what simultaneous notes you can physically play using two mallets in one hand)...but Van Sice is a pretty amazing performer, so...
Has anyone heard him play this marimba? Sorry, I guess I got off the subject a bit, but Roger's post made me think of it. |
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ShandorJohnson
Silver Member
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 20 April 2007 : 1:06:17 PM
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Remember Ray Charles? He crossed Gospel with Rythm and Blues, and Jazz. With Ray Charles you are hearing the music, because he performs it flawlessly to the very voice of a cover. And I am not saying that Classical was Orchestral. Orchestral music and instruments existed long after and before the Classical Era. Boroque gave us Bach, and the Modern Era had a mixing of Classical and Blues. The Beatles gave us Yesterday and Strawberry Fields for Ever. The sounds of the Eras are never lost, simply resampled/mixed into a fusion.
"It has been said that there can be no new and original Opera, they've already been maxed out." - Marvin Pontiac |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2007 : 4:39:49 PM
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Musically comparing the 20th, 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries it seems obvious that the 20th is unique in it's attempt to abandon all
sense of propriety in the name of blazing new trails sonically. But who knows? maybe rebel composers existed in previous centuries whose works have since disappeared into oblivion.
My observation is that history still favors tonality. Notice which works of 20th century's greatest composers continue to be played and you will see that the compositions that adhere to some kind of tonal language that naturally appeals to the human ear and human heart are the ones have survived the test of time.
My own theory, which certainly isn't new, is that this due to the simple fact that rules of tonality evolved ultimately out of the naturally occuring notes in the overtone series and the way that the human ear perceives consonant and dissonant intervals. Consonant intervals are pleasing to the ear because the frequencies of the sounds line up in nice mathematical ratios that do not fight each other and/or try to cancel each other out. Dissonant intervals have a certain battle going on that the ear and heart perceive as painful to a certain degree and want them to be resolved. As you examine this more and more, it is not difficult to reach the conclusion that some very fundamental physical laws are at work here, and to realise once again that tonality ultimately follows the fundamental laws of nature.
In this light, to completely abandon tonality would be as brilliant as trying to give up on gravity, food, love, or any other basic element of our existence.
I ask you this: if you meet someone with 2 eyes, a nose, and a mouth do you say "Yawn---not another one of these? I prefer the 3-eyed, 7 and 1/2-armed, 3/4-nosed variety, especially on Friday nights".
So why is it taboo in so many circles to write triadic melodies using I IV V I? I submit that the so-called cliches that everyone tries to avoid were just as cliche in Mozart's day as they are now. The trick is somehow putting a twist on them to make them new and fresh. That is what is truly fascinating to me---what makes one melody superior to another even though they both correctly follow the same set of rules. How is it that a slight change in a section of a tonal piece can suddenly transform it from something mediocre into a something magical? It reminds me of watching masters at the game of GO especially during their opening moves.
Also, music is a language. If you are constantly re-inventing the grammar, the words, even the alphabet, how can anyone hope to communicate with anyone else? The true substance to a piece of music lies deeper than the particular bag of tricks that a composer chooses to employ or not.
So looking into the future (peering into the patterns of the wrinkles on my last manuscript that I tossed into the garbage can, an instant before my wife feeds it into the jaws of her shredder) I see in the 21st century...a bright future...full of hope...opportunity...and the pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody, and other virtues from the the days of old.
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 28 June 2007 09:12:42 AM |
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Will Denayer
Silver Member
Ireland
183 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2007 : 6:27:08 PM
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"I see in the 21st century...a bright future...full of hope...opportunity...and the pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody, and other virtues from the the days of old." Pranakasha
Well, for the first time in a really long time I am able to read books again and I am enjoying it tremendously. I had surgery and I can see really fine again.
I just read a biography of Ligeti, who is a composer for who I always had an enormous respect and I do not like what you are saying. It is patently untrue that there is a lack of respect for craft, taste etc. in 'modern classical' music. I never understood this dedain towards contemporary music although the attitude is of course as old as culture itself - Plato bashing at the artists who were not following the rules and so on. In my opinion, Ligeti's music is just as great as Bach or Beethoven and he is not the negation of tradition and the same is true for some other contemporary composers.
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2007 : 7:56:36 PM
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"I see in the 21st century...a bright future...full of hope...opportunity...and the pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody, and other virtues from the the days of old." Pranakasha
There so much great, awe-inspiring, earth-moving and heart-rending music from contemporary composers, I am astounded that someone would be rehashing those tired old cliches. Give it a break and start listening instead of pre-judging.
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 08:11:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ronan
"I see in the 21st century...a bright future...full of hope...opportunity...and the pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody, and other virtues from the the days of old." Pranakasha
There so much great, awe-inspiring, earth-moving and heart-rending music from contemporary composers, I am astounded that someone would be rehashing those tired old cliches. Give it a break and start listening instead of pre-judging.
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
Well, I'm all for listening rather than pre-judging.
But unfortunately, in my case as a composer I find myself runnning into the same kind of snobbery from university professors and fellow composers that the early 20th century composers received from the establishment ironically for the opposite reason.
Because my music is unashamedly old-fashioned, it is instantly dismissed by those "in the know".
So it begs the question: who is the audience for whom we are writing? The general public? conductors? our peers? professional musicians? students? ourselves? etc.
To tell the truth, I perform and enjoy all genres of music, as long as it is well-done. The real problem that I see in our times is that because Western Classical Music has pretty much pulled out all the stops and allows for the creation of anything under the sun (as long as it doesn't sound remotely like Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven), even the educated listener is largely at sea when trying listen to a new piece.
It takes quite a large committment of time and energy to truly learn the language of a particular genre. Even now, after a half a lifetime of classical training, I feel like I am still just discovering the layers of genius in the music of Bach and Mozart, not to mention all the great composers who followed them.
So how is one to truly take in this huge Pandora's Box of the the 20th century over the course of 70-80 years of our mortal existence?
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 28 June 2007 08:13:28 AM |
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ronan
Administrator
Canada
2094 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 11:31:06 AM
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We have had these discussions countless times on this and other forums. Simply put: contemporary music is anything its composers want it to be. Whether it gets performed or appreciated by audiences is another matter altogether.
What we saw over the course of the 17th-20th centuries was an acceleration in the speed of discovery of new methods. This acceleration continues. I am not saying everything was good and wonderful. There was some absolutely dreadful music produced through the entire period. In every era people longed for "the good old days." I state that "the good old days" is an illusion reinforced by an inability to adapt to change.
I don't care if you want to write in the style of our predecessors or not. You are perfectly free to write an 19th century waltz or imitate J S Bach. If it gives you pleasure the write a minuet, please do so. I doubt such music, however well done, will be of interest to anyone outside a small circle of your friends.
I think a composer should use all tools at hand, even those from the dreaded 20th century. I also think we are living at the most creative period in human history.
As for the opinions of music professors and music students, who cares? Very generally speaking, from all I've read and seen, is that they think musical progression ended about 1950 and they sneer at everything since that period. I suspect that's where your argument should be, rather than with the contemporary world that has long since moved past serialism and artificial constructs.
Respectfully,
Ron
Finale 2006c, full GPO & JABB under XP/Pro SP2
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Will Denayer
Silver Member
Ireland
183 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 1:04:52 PM
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Mr. Weiss, If you have something to tell me, do it here. I do not see the point of you sending e-mails to my account.
Thanks, Will |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 1:46:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Denayer
Mr. Weiss, If you have something to tell me, do it here. I do not see the point of you sending e-mails to my account.
Thanks, Will
Dear Will,
I can't figure out how to get at the email history of what I sent you using the Forum's emailer. Please post it here if you see fit...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Will Denayer
Silver Member
Ireland
183 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 1:48:56 PM
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Dear Mr. Weiss,
Since you got me curious I visited your website and listened to your clarinet concerto. It was you, was it not, who wrote a message promoting a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody and other virtues which have been quasi destroyed by these degenerate contempories?
You seem to have studied with a lot of people, also taking up composition. I'm afraid you did not learn much. I guess that the first part is meant to be in sonata form. Where's your development? I hear a lot of chords - which are badly orchestrated as there is absolutely no balance, flow or colour in the orchestration - Mozart is there and Haydn and Beethoven and Schubert, by which I mean there is no aesthetic coherence while as for the clarinet, the first theme is ugly and unimaginative and the same goes for what the orchestra does before that. There one thing I liked: the second intro of the clarinet. I think it's quite beautiful. Can't you write a variation or two? Where in this first part of this concerto is the clarinet shining? Where does it show what it can do? Absolutely nowhere. Is this, then, the craft you want to promote and which you deplore others not having it? This is just a third or fourth rate 19th century piece betraying confusion on the part of the composer and - inherently related to this - painfull lack of skill. We are not talking here about contemporary music. I am following your dance. This concerto is just plain bad according to *your* aesthetic beliefs - Mozart and company would just find it hard to listen to, as did I. Perhaps you can study a bit more. Try listening to Berlioz, for example, or is he one of the degenerates too?
The thing I hated the most when I was almost blind was that I had to be friendly to people all the time. But it wouldn't be Ireland if something not utterly surreal would not happen. One day before my surgery I was walking around the hospital when a guy grabbed my hand and asked me where I wanted to go. Outside, I said, because I want to smoke a cig. I'll take you there said the guy and so we walked hand in hand. The further we went, the more I realised that we were not going in the direction of the entrance. Where are you taking me?, I said. I dunno, he answered, I guess I lost my way. I'm blind you see, but I heard you stumble in the hall and I said to myself, let's give the poor lad a hand!
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 2:21:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ronan
...I state that "the good old days" is an illusion reinforced by an inability to adapt to change.
I don't care if you want to write in the style of our predecessors or not. You are perfectly free to write an 19th century waltz or imitate J S Bach. If it gives you pleasure the write a minuet, please do so. I doubt such music, however well done, will be of interest to anyone outside a small circle of your friends.
Dear Ron,
I agree that there isn't much point in attempting to imitate J.S. Bach, or write a minuet aside for the fun of it unless it was in some marketable context such as for a play, movie, commercial, or something like that. I do admit to writing a waltz or two for string orchestra which admittedly are little more than fluff. Also, no one in their right mind would want to go head-to-head with Mozart on his own turf!
However I strongly believe that the possibilities for "serious" music composed in the later 19th century styles a la Mendelsohn, Brahms, Wagner, and Richard Strauss are far from exhausted.
It is not unusual for contemporary visual artists to limit themselves to certain genres and still create meaningful works. I know a number of artists who do portraits and still-life paintings and drawings that are quite realistic studies in anatomy, shading, lighting, composition---the basic building blocks of their technique. Yet they are not chastised by their mentors as being too "old-fashioned".
Take the game of chess: Everyone still plays it using an 8 X 8 board, the same pieces, even a quite limited set of opening moves. Yet great minds continue to be fascinated by it.
And I also sincerely agree with you that as composers we live in an era of great opportunity since there are so many tools and techniques at our disposal. We're like a kid in the candy shop with our parent's credit card.
Now it seems to also be a law of nature that composers--myself included--all have a chip on their shoulder, feel unappreciated, and have a certain contempt for classical musicians and audiences as a whole.
Happily, our savior, Gary Garritan, has come to the rescue and allowed us, for the first time in history, to say "the hell with them" and have our computer create accurately rendered demos of our stuff for a mere $200! Also, with the advent of easily-produced personal websites (yours by the way is very fine not to mention the music) it is now possible for classical composers to build an audience from the ground up just as garage bands are now doing.
So, yes I will continue to write in my chosen voice, which no doubt will evolve over time. It would be nice though, to gain a little more credibility from those whom I consider my peers...
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 28 June 2007 2:57:49 PM |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 2:49:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Denayer
Dear Mr. Weiss,
Since you got me curious I visited your website and listened to your clarinet concerto. It was you, was it not, who wrote a message promoting a healthy respect for craft, taste, melody and other virtues which have been quasi destroyed by these degenerate contempories?
You seem to have studied with a lot of people, also taking up composition. I'm afraid you did not learn much. I guess that the first part is meant to be in sonata form. Where's your development? I hear a lot of chords - which are badly orchestrated as there is absolutely no balance, flow or colour in the orchestration - Mozart is there and Haydn and Beethoven and Schubert, by which I mean there is no aesthetic coherence while as for the clarinet, the first theme is ugly and unimaginative and the same goes for what the orchestra does before that. There one thing I liked: the second intro of the clarinet. I think it's quite beautiful. Can't you write a variation or two? Where in this first part of this concerto is the clarinet shining? Where does it show what it can do? Absolutely nowhere. Is this, then, the craft you want to promote and which you deplore others not having it? This is just a third or fourth rate 19th century piece betraying confusion on the part of the composer and - inherently related to this - painfull lack of skill. We are not talking here about contemporary music. I am following your dance. This concerto is just plain bad according to *your* aesthetic beliefs - Mozart and company would just find it hard to listen to, as did I. Perhaps you can study a bit more. Try listening to Berlioz, for example, or is he one of the degenerates too?
The thing I hated the most when I was almost blind was that I had to be friendly to people all the time. But it wouldn't be Ireland if something not utterly surreal would not happen. One day before my surgery I was walking around the hospital when a guy grabbed my hand and asked me where I wanted to go. Outside, I said, because I want to smoke a cig. I'll take you there said the guy and so we walked hand in hand. The further we went, the more I realised that we were not going in the direction of the entrance. Where are you taking me?, I said. I dunno, he answered, I guess I lost my way. I'm blind you see, but I heard you stumble in the hall and I said to myself, let's give the poor lad a hand!
Dear Will,
Thank your for feedback on my Clarinet Concerto which has been posted in the showcase for some weeks and viewed by many. Too bad I had to stand in the middle of the room and hit a gong at FFF in order to get someone to comment upon it, except for one lone soul who objected to the abbreviations that I used for the instruments in the score!
To me this indicates something.
I would gladly love to re-examine my work, since the last movement is not yet complete and I haven't passed the parts out to anyone.
Would you be able to include some bar numbers with your comments so that we might fairly be able to duke it out?
Curiously, I consider Berlioz to be the worst of all the well-known 19th century composers and seriously doubt that Brahms, Mendelsohn, Wagner, Chopin, Schumann, or any of the other big names in the 1800's respected his work at all.
touché,
---Matt
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 01 July 2007 12:31:56 PM |
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Will Denayer
Silver Member
Ireland
183 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 3:18:07 PM
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Dear Matt,
I will download the score from the first part and give comments on technical stuff including bar numbers.
As for Berlioz, the symphonie fantastique and Harold en Italie are two of the pieces that I would take with me to the proverbial deserted island (although 1812 is, arguably, better if you want to get in touch with the rest again :-)).
Will |
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pranakasha
Silver Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 3:27:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Denayer
Dear Matt,
I will download the score from the first part and give comments on technical stuff including bar numbers.
As for Berlioz, the symphonie fantastique and Harold en Italie are two of the pieces that I would take with me to the proverbial deserted island (although 1812 is, arguably, better if you want to get in touch with the rest again :-)).
Will
Sounds like a good brawl, just so we both agree that all's fair in love, war, and music...
Matthew Charles Weiss
Pranakasha Productions
Seattle, WA USA
www.WeissConcerto.com
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Edited by - pranakasha on 28 June 2007 3:29:49 PM |
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Hal Owen
Moderator
USA
1808 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2007 : 8:09:48 PM
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An old guy's opinion: Tonality is certainly not dead, and triads are still being used by composers of all stripes and all ages. As long as the tones we work with are allowed to assume some kind of hierarchy from time to time, tonality will remain alive. I think that the cult of "all tones are created equal" and "no tones shall be 'more equal' than any others" had its heyday in the middle of the 20th century among a minority of composers, and today it's nearly moribund.
However, dissonance is essential. In spite of the relatively strong tonal focus of much of today's new music, you will find all of the mild as well as strong dissonances there in abundance. It takes years to become skillful in their use. It takes more than two chords and a sring of quarter notes to make good harmony and melody.
Hal
Harold Owen
mailto:hjowen@uoregon.edu
Visit my web site at:
http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen |
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