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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
 Posted - 11 April 2006 : 2:03:22 PM
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What is the difference between a "Dsus" chord and a "Dsus4" chord, if any? Which one is better to use? Also, are they called "sustained" chords or "suspended" chords?
Thanks!
PrintMusic! 2004, Windows XP |
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DatBugler
Silver Member
USA
392 Posts |
Posted - 11 April 2006 : 2:55:05 PM
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There isn't really a huge difference between a sus and a sus4 chord most of the time, because both imply a suspended fourth and a minor seventh. Personally I usually prefer the symbol sus4, because it allows me to differentiate between the chord with and without a seventh (sus4 and opposed to 7sus4). In a context where it is clear what the symbol means, sus might be more appropriate, or if the tune is modal (for example a tune like Maiden Voyage, where the sus chords might be voiced as m7 chords with foreign bass or m11 chords).
Saul Tobin - Composer since 2003
Finale 2005b |
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DickB
Gold Member
USA
668 Posts |
Posted - 11 April 2006 : 3:19:35 PM
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Sus stands for suspension/suspended.
I like to see "sus4" because I have seen chords identified as "sus" where the suspended tone was actually a 2, not a 4 --- the same chord that I've also seen identified as "add2."
Dick Brodfuehrer
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(I'm a hack arranger for big-bands and not-so-big-bands --- mostly not-so-big-bands)
(Finale 2003a, 2005, 2006, XP Home)
Isn't it a shame that so many people die with their music still in them. |
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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
Posted - 11 April 2006 : 4:53:34 PM
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How does a suspended chord imply a minor seventh? Anyway, I was wondering how to write the chord D-G-A-C. In PrintMusic 2004, this is written as D7sus4 -- is this correct?
I wish I could post longer; I've got to go now, though. 
PrintMusic! 2004, Windows XP |
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Bill Sveglini
Moderator
USA
1235 Posts |
Posted - 12 April 2006 : 11:04:18 AM
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Hello Phillip. Yes that is the spelling for a 7 sus4. A sus 4 should not automatically have a 7th. In guitar music and music in general there are many instances of the sus4 that have no minor 7th added. I agree with Dick that I also like to have the chord tell exactly what they want by asking for the 4th. I have seen many times things like Csus9 - Csus2. Again, like Dick, I like to really make sure what is to be played. If I want a D chord with a G added I will write Dsus4. Have a great day. Bill
Bill Sveglini- Chapel Music Director Emeritus
Burlingame United Methodist Church, Burlingame CA
Pentium IV Dual Core 3.8, 4 gig ram, SoundBlaster XFi on desktop. Pentium IV 3.2 1 gig ram on laptop. Window XP Home-Finale 2006-TGT tools, Symphony of Voices, GPO, Kontakt 1.5 and Gigastudio 160
bill@composeforums.com
Sveglini@yahoo.com
"Music is the Love of My Heart, My Soul and is Why I Exist" |
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DatBugler
Silver Member
USA
392 Posts |
Posted - 12 April 2006 : 1:18:15 PM
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Well you can see that your own example chord has a minor seventh. In a lot of popular music I guess what I said about implying the seventh isn't really true. In jazz, at least as I've been taught, most of the time a sus chord (like any chord) has a seventh and a ninth voiced with it, so a chord with the symbol Csus would end up being C F G Bb D, which incidentally is the same notes as G-7/C or G-11 (and it includes the ninth anyway so there's no need to to worry about confusion with sus2 chords). The advantage of just labeling a chord "sus" is that, if the context makes the interpretation clear, the shorter symbol is easier to parse while sightreading. On the other hand, if the meaning of "sus" would be at all ambiguous, it is probably better to err on the side of precision and write "sus4" or "7sus4". I should stop rambling now.
Saul Tobin - Composer since 2003
Finale 2005b |
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E. Mann
Bronze Member
62 Posts |
Posted - 12 April 2006 : 5:55:26 PM
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If I may put in my two cents’ worth:
Historically, suspensions on root position chords resolved to either the 3rd or to the root. In 18th century figured bass, the suspension resolving to the chord 3rd was shown as 4-3 (4 denoting the suspension and 3 the note of resolution). Suspensions resolving to the chord root were figured as 9-8 when the note of resolution was an octave above the bass; and as 2-1 when the note of resolution was in unison with the bass (rarely). Since any interval foreign to the triad was treated as dissonant, resolution of the suspension was imperative. The 4 suspension occurred most often on the dominant (V) chord, resolving to the leading tone.
Our sus chords of today function in much the same manner -- with or without the chord seventh (or ninth) added -- but often without resolution. What we actually hear are two chord functions occurring simultaneously: V, whose root is sounded in the bass; and II or IV sounding above the V root. In so-called “modal” jazz tunes such as Maiden Voyage, resolution of the 4 suspension to the leading tone is avoided, so that no specific tonal center is established, thereby allowing free movement to other sus chords having no obligatory intervallic relationship to one another.
E. Mann
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DatBugler
Silver Member
USA
392 Posts |
Posted - 12 April 2006 : 7:42:14 PM
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In continuance of E. Mann's excellent explanation of the origin of sus chords:
The other development that freed sus chords from their function as an elaboration of a dominant chord was the invention of quartal harmony. A 7sus4 chord, though derived from a triadic harmony, is actually a quartal sonority. For example, Csus4 = C F G, which is an inversion of the quartal chord G C F. Adding a seventh we have a choice of a Bn or Bb, but the natural (pun unintentional but nevertheless totally awesome) choice is a Bb since it extends the quartal chord to G C F Bb, hence C7sus4 rather than CM7sus4. Adding a ninth merely entails extending the quartal chord in the other direction, to D G C F Bb, yielding C9sus4 = G-11/C. Adding another generation of notes yields A and Eb, the 13th and minor 3rd respectively, which are both common notes for jazz musicians improvising over sus chords, and which complete the C dorian scale. One more generation gives E and Ab (the quartal chord then is E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab), which are also somewhat common, though less so. Since E and Ab are each one quartal generation removed from the basic chord, they are more tense than A and Eb (they also form half step dissonances with chord tones).
Because quartal chords have less pronounced tendencies than triadic harmonies, composers using them have more freedom to create modal progressions like in Maiden Voyage. The advantage of the quartal approach for improvising musicians is that it allows you to expand on the harmony or even "go outside" in a logical way that mantains the sound of the original chord. This is also a reason why the symbol "sus" might sometimes be appropriate, if the composer wants a general quartal sound based off the root note, rather than a specific voicing of root-fourth-fifth-seventh. This might be just me, but when I see "7sus4" or "sus4" I think in terms of a triadic chord with a suspension, and when I see "sus" I think quartal. Does anyone else think this way?
Saul Tobin - Composer since 2003
Finale 2005b |
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davidoxon
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 30 July 2006 : 2:29:57 PM
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n/a
deleted
1437 Posts |
Posted - 30 July 2006 : 2:31:40 PM
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David,
You don't need to test -- simply post in our "Take Five" forum ( http://www.composeforums.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=11 ) and introduce yourself to us all.
But welcome to the forums!
Mike Kelley
Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school |
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davidoxon
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 30 July 2006 : 2:36:55 PM
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Sorry about the test but wanted to make sure my registration worked before I posted!
I (for my sins) notate quite a few guitar charts (lyrics with chords above and pics at the top, you know the kind of thing)
For general use, sus is just too vague. . . it has to be sus something!
Usually sus4 or 7sus4 or sus2+4 for example C D F G.
I use 2 instead of 9 if there is no 7th.
So C9 is C E G Bb D
C2, C D E G
Csus2 C D G
Theres also add4 which would be C E F G
I also prefer Cno3rd as opposed to C5
my 2 penny worth!
David |
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zac100
Bronze Member
81 Posts |
Posted - 25 August 2006 : 11:46:19 AM
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| I'm no jazzer, but I've heard it said that a "sus" chord means a suspended 11th. (yes, I know that a 4th and an 11th are the same, but an octave apart). I wonder if this sus11 idea is why there seems to be a discrepancy about whether or not "sus" implied an added 7th?? |
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Edward Palamar
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 22 October 2007 : 1:02:42 PM
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This is an interesting topic, indeed! I included a special section on the 'sus' chord in 'my' chord manual (done in Finale 2005) which is also available in set of TIFF files at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tertian_Harmony/
A large page spanning stapler is normally required to bind the document.
The only reason I included the topic was because of it's popularity and to be frank, necessity. True, there are 4-3, 6-5, 9-8 suspensions, but, the most popular is the 4-3, thus the 'sus' or 'sus4' chord. I have found the use of 'sus' cumbersome in writing chord abbreviations and have adopted an easier way of notating the entire family of 'sus4' chords - at least in Finale.
C4 indicates the simplest, = C,F,G; C with a 7 over the 4 delineates for the Bb; a 9 over the 4 allows the use of the added D; putting the (9) in parentheses indicates only the added 9th (with no 7th); there is also the -9 sus, the +9 sus, even a - and + 9 sus also used as 'add', and there are the aforesaid with the added (13)th and (-13)th, as well. |
Edited by - Edward Palamar on 09 September 2009 1:35:22 PM |
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jazvampire
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 07 February 2009 : 11:06:30 PM
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just putting in MY two cents...
the best description of the "sus" chord notation (and it's nomenclature)can be found by reading Clinton Roemer's "Guide to Standardized Chord Notation" |
"Don't just sit there... WRITE something" |
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jazvampire
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09 February 2009 : 8:45:27 PM
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| Get the book.... it's a reference for standardization (which, IMHO, is sorely needed) |
"Don't just sit there... WRITE something" |
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jazvampire
New Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 12 February 2009 : 12:33:53 PM
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I forgot the co-author...
Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer.
Standardized Chord Symbol Notation. Roerick Music Co. Sherman Oaks, CA.
(it may be out of print, but should be available thru most libraries, usually on an interlibrary loan from a college or university)
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"Don't just sit there... WRITE something" |
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